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  • Name Phil Murray
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Can I have the Brain 8 notes editor back?
Ruud --

[Ruud]
Maybe try this as tests:

    copy & paste a paragraph from a web page into Seamonkey and check the HTML
    copy & paste the same paragraph into the brain, check its HTML
    then copy & paste the paragraph from the brain into seamonkey

I would be curious to see what it does.

[Phil]
I have tried this before and I just tried it again. I tried it again using MS Edge -- just for a change of pace. The result: Reasonably clean HTML when pasting part of a Web page (from the Washington Post, this time) into SeaMonkey but a <span> code for every space (wordspace character) when pasting from the Brain into SeaMonkey.

Sooo ... as I noted to Harlan: I suspect that the unusual results I am seeing are the result of some low-level cross-platform incompatibilities (like the differences in end-of-line characters in Unix, Mac OS, and Windows) plus idiosyncratic behaviors of some applications in how they interpret them. I can't prove that, but I would not be surprised if other problems occasionally surface as a result. I'll wait to see whether other folks run into similar anomalies.

I will probably use a very small AutoHotKey script to grab the location of the current Notes.html file and copy its content to the Clipboard.

[Ruud]
The result would be identical in any WYSIWYG editor. In order to preserve the formatting, which they try to do, they have to inject the formatting either as inline HTML elements or CSS. It's not possible to paste rich text and not store the formatting information somewhere. In an HTML document it just becomes readily visible while a word processor like Microsoft Word hides the formatting information in its document structure.

[Phil]
Yes. Exactly true. (But the results for any specific Web page may be somewhat in different in different HTML editors ... and on different platforms. I believe you just assumed that. I just wanted to make it explicit.)

Thanks, Ruud. Your insights were very helpful.

    Phil
Can I have the Brain 8 notes editor back?
Harlan --


[Harlan]
Are you saying that when you open the Notes folder inside of the thought folder and view the notes.html file you are seeing span tags around every word

[Phil]
No, I thought I made it clear that the Notes.html file is perfectly clean basic HTML.

So I will probably use a very small AutoHotKey script to grab the location of the current Notes.html file and copy its content to the Clipboard.

Which reminds me: Given the large number of features provided by TheBrain, a macro facility would be helpful.


[Harlan]
We went to great lengths to make the HTML of version 9 very clean. In fact, most of the complaints against the new editor in version 9 are in fact due to the way it is designed around producing clean HTML.

[Phil]
Making the HTML of v. 9 very clean is EXACTLY what you should do. I applaud your decision.

I suspect that the unusual results I am seeing are the result of some low-level cross-platform incompatibilities (like the differences in end-of-line characters in Unix, Mac OS, and Windows) plus idiosyncratic behaviors of some applications in how they interpret. I can't prove that, but I would not be surprised if other problems occasionally surface as a result. I'll wait to see whether other folks run into similar anomalies. I have abused your patience quite enough.


[Harlan]
The enter key creates a paragraph instead of a line break.

[Phil]
This is exactly the right behavior. And Shift+Enter should generate <br>.

Thanks again for help.

    Phil
    
   
Can I have the Brain 8 notes editor back?
Ruud --

Thanks for the thoughtful in-depth analysis.

I don't think it's SeaMonkey Composer ... or at least not solely SeaMonkey Composer.

I tried viewing the same HTML data from a note using the OpenOffice Web Writer. That produced a different but equally bad result.

Pasting notes.html (from the Brain directory) into SeaMonkey Composer doesn't introduce any extra coding. It's perfectly clean. Not even a <div> code.

If I copy directly from a variety of Web sources into SeaMonkey Composer, I don't have this kind of problem.

And I never had this problem with TheBrain 8, into which I copied HTML data from hundreds of different sources ... and from which I can copy directly into SeaMonkey Composer without generating extra HTML coding.

Perhaps the following code that Composer shows may be a clue:

<span class="Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>

Some cross-platform content compatibility issues???

I'll keep digging into this on the basis of your insights.

Thanks,

     Phil
Can I have the Brain 8 notes editor back?
Harlan --

First of all, thanks for taking the time to reply in detail to my post. You and others in this forum have always been very helpful, patient, and generous with your time -- one of the reasons I continue to pay for using TheBrain.

I am a long-time user of HTML, but I am NOT an expert in HTML. So let me try to make sure that I am correctly interpreting what you wrote and explain some apparent differences between what you wrote and what I observed when using TheBrain 9. I am sure that at least some of those differences are simply a result of my not understanding what you wrote.


[Harlan]
If you want to see what is actually inside your note, opening the note in the browser and viewing the source will show you that.

[Phil]
By "actually inside your note" I assume you mean what TheBrain stores, before it is rendered by a browser (and styles applied, from wherever they may be stored) for display. But selecting and copying the content of the Notes window itself -- as opposed to the content of that window displayed by "Open in browser" (in my case, Firefox) -- produces two different results. I get what I want [almost -- there's still an unnecessary <div> code] when I use "Open in browser" but it requires a couple extra steps for me.

But why, under any circumstances or in any state of rendering/application of styles, would the browser/editor for Notes built into TheBrain 9 insert such coding as <span> xxxxxx</span> for *every word* in the Note? And isn't there a computational cost for doing so?

[Harlan]
Content that you write inside the notes editor will be very clean, with minimal tags.

[Phil]
It appears that pasting pure ASCII text into the Notes window produces exactly the same result as typing text into the Notes window. That's as it should be.


[Harlan]
If you copy text from another source (Word for example or a web page) and paste it into notes, it will not be clean unless you use "Paste and Match Format" from the context menu.

[Phil]
Word files always contain a lot of junk. Which is why I do not use Word for writing. And I can't test that part of your assertion because I don't own Word.

Using Firefox, if I copy some text from a Web page and paste it using "Paste and Match Format" into the Notes windows, then copy that text from the Notes window into SeaMonkey Composer, I still huge get a huge amount coding. Every single word in the text is enclosed in a <span>.


[Harlan]
Setting the notes style (whether you select a pre-defined style or use custom) does not change the content of your note. It only changes the CSS used to render it.

[Phil]
Yes, I understand that.

[Harlan]
When you choose the "custom" style, yes, the Brain Theme dialog opens because the notes style is part of the brain theme. Just use the "Notes" area of the dialog to choose a base style, select a font, and choose colors.

[Phil]
Yes, I see that but it's not relevant for me. I want HTML content that has *no* styling/CSS information. And I think there are many others who want that option.

[Harlan]
Going back to original question, the way that copy and paste works is quite complicated and depends on both the source and destination fo the copy/paste operation.

[Phil]
Yes, I understand some of those issues. I worked with SGML before XML and HTML (and XHTML) existed. Getting content from a wide range of sources into a consistent, reusable form has been an issue for as long as we have shared electronic documents. Trust me, the issues at the Wall Street Journal and major publishing houses in the '90s were nightmarish. And we all have different solutions, it seems.

Even clean HTML (XHTML) is not a very good solution; its simplistic modeling of content architecture is routinely abused ... badly, often because people use visible styles to represent content structure ... because there is little choice. God bless Tim B-L for at least giving us something simple to start with, but he could not have foreseen that Web pages would become even more complex than most printed pages.

[Harlan]
All I can tell you is that the HTML that is inside your note is very similar to (actually it's even simpler than) the HTML that is sent to the browser when you choose the open in browser command.

[Phil]
It's very similar in appearance in WYSIWYG mode, but not when you look at the underlying HTML-coded content. And if I just Copy the content of the Notes to another application that tries to render the HTML-coded content, I get a real mess. For example, in OpenOffice Writer, every original word of the text is surrounded by OO Writer codes.

[Harlan]
If you really want to see what is in your notes, you can look in the thought folder inside the Notes folder and view the raw HTML.

[Phil]
Yes, I have done that.

[Harlan]
If you see lots of <span> tags with embedded style information, that is content that was either imported from version 8 or was copied and pasted from another source.

[Phil]
In my tests, that appears not to be true. Whether typing directly into a Notes window of a new Thought or pasting pure ASCII text into that Window, the extra <span> tags are produced.

Thanks,

    Phil Murray
Can I have the Brain 8 notes editor back?
metta --

I had never noticed that option, so I just tested it.

No, it doesn't.

Thanks,

    Phil
Delete a Brain -- just delete it
@korma --

Amen to that!

For the same reason.

     Phil
Can I have the Brain 8 notes editor back?
Hi, folks.

I'm revisiting the Notes editor issues in Brain 9 because I find them worrisome.

Just to be perfectly clear: I DO want the text coded in [basic] HTML -- as in TheBrain 8. A Custom option would be fine. (A No Styles option would be better.) But the Custom option displayed by clicking the _Notes Style_ button displays _Brain Themes_. And, yes, it does change the Brain Theme -- not the style of Notes. I don't understand that at all. What am I missing?

The most obvious issue: If you copy directly from the Notes editor and paste into an HTML editor (SeaMonkey Composer, in my case), a huge amount of unnecessary (and irritating) HTML coding is inserted into the text.

Using Open in Browser produces a much more desirable result -- a workaround suggested earlier by the good folks here. But I can't help thinking that that the massive amount of code inserted by the Brain 9 Notes editor is NOT a good thing.

Using version 9.0.242.0 for Windows. (Recent previous versions had the same problem.)

The attached text file provides an example.


Thanks,

      Phil Murray
Can I have the Brain 8 notes editor back?
Apologies to both Harlan and metta for the much-delayed response.

1. I'm on Windows 10, v. 10.0.16299
2. When I copy and paste to the SeaMonkey HTML editor, v. 2.46 (my primary writing tool), I get a ton of embedded (and very extraneous) HTML markup in one case.
3. If I paste into Notepad++, all HTML codes are stripped -- which is what I expect.
4. When trying Open Note in Browser (by clicking the icon in the Notes editor), I did get relatively clean HTML when copying from the browser and pasting into the SeaMonkey HTML editor. (But a try with a different Note failed to launch the browser and gave an error. (I sent the report to TheBrain.)
5. No, metta, I haven't found a workaround. But if the Open in Browser option works consistently, I could probably live with that. I would still prefer the TB8 notes editor.

    Phil
text shadow makes thoughts difficutl to read (#3580)
I strongly agree that text shadows (also called "drop shadows") are detrimental to legibility. In v. 9, if you highlight a Thought and select Show Thought Properties, you can see for yourself that the name of the Thought is much more legible in the properties box than in the Thought in the Plex. PLEASE gives us back a "no text shadow" option!
Can I have the Brain 8 notes editor back?
That's true -- and thanks for pointing that out.

But if I copy the note content and paste it into another application, all the style information is embedded in the content.

I did just notice that if you choose to display the note in a browser, you get clean HTML. But that's an extra step or two that I would like to avoid.

Perhaps there are other techniques that I have not discovered yet.

I do genuinely like almost all the decisions you have made so far with Beta 9.

Thanks,

     Phil

Can I have the Brain 8 notes editor back?
With apologies if this request has been made before:

I don't see a way to use HTML with NO styles. Now notes contain all sorts of style crap.

This is really bad for people like me who prefer to do all writing in basic HTML, thus making all content that we create in TheBrain (and in other tools that support HTML) reusable in any context.

Can we please have an option in Brain 9 to use the old style-less (no CSS) Notes editor? The Brain 8 Notes editor is great -- a perfect combination of easy to read/edit Design view and clean HTML! It's also very easy to use.

Thanks,

Phil Murray
TamingComplexity.org
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